http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-episcopal-church11-2009jul11,0,3371251.story?track=rss
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/episcopal
The Episcopal Church is in a flux right now because of the homosexual issue. At a recent convention, the highlight was the topic of same-sex marriage (and the ordination of homosexuals as priests). The above links show how TEC is having a difficult time dealing with this issue. If it doesn’t improve, a denominational split is likely.
It’s no secret that The Episcopal Church is certainly more progressive in regard to this issue (Along with the UCC) The UMC has debated this issue, but as of now still supports a traditional view of marriage between a man and a woman and only allows heterosexuals to serve as ordained ministers (according to the Disciple). I personally don’t see this changing anytime soon and we would most likely see a church split before marrying and ordaining homosexuals.
I understand that this is a complex issue and needs to be debated. But the question is, “At what cost?” How effective is our ministry during this debate? Whenever we are debating this issue, are we open-minded to listen to our other brothers and sisters in Christ? Are we seeking unity in the body of Christ as we debate?
I’m not naive. I know that the UMC as well as all denominations will face this issue (The UMC already is). My prayer is that we would debate in light of the mission that Christ has for us. My prayer is that we will keep the cross central, and not our own agendas. My prayer is that we will understand that the mission of the UMC (and the church universal) is much, much bigger than this small issue.
Many have predicted that the UMC will be non-existent by the turn of the century. I’m convinced that if we are united, even if we disagree on certain issues, this won’t happen. But divided, our church will struggle.
Below is Adam Hamilton’s attempt at understanding both sides and trying to find unity among disagreement.
http://adamhamilton.cor.org/2009/02/03/in-dealing-with-homosexuals/
“In things essential, unity; In things inessential, liberty; In all things, charity.”
St. Augustine
Jason Jones said,
July 21, 2009 @ 2:11 am
Adrian Rogers once said, “It is better to be divided by truth than by error.” This is how I see this. How can a church be united on sin. The Bible is clear that this sin is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. Paul dedicated a good portion of Romans 1 to this issue. We have to remember that one standing with God is a majority. This issue effects the whole church. The world does not look at just the Anglican church on this issue. They just see it as church. We need to be salt and light. It is time for us to stand on God’s Word and it only. Can Jesus say anyone? Absolutely! But, Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5:17, “Behold old things pass away, behold I make all things new.” God can save anyone, but when He does, there is a change of heart and life to be lived for His glory.
sgabrave said,
July 21, 2009 @ 3:49 pm
“It is better to be divided by truth than by error.”
The only truth that we know is Jesus Christ. Anything else is our interpretation of truth. You and I probably see eye to eye on this issue, and we may be right, but I can guarantee you that we are wrong on some other issue. Should we divide then? I think the problem is that we have made this into THE issue in today’s church. Again, it should be debated, but not how we have been going about it. Hatred has been from both sides of this issue, which certainly doesn’t represent the gospel that you and I preach. How would Jesus deal with this issue? Not sure, but I’m certain that he would welcome them into the body of Christ.
Jason Jones said,
July 22, 2009 @ 2:13 am
Christ will welcome “whoesover will.” But in order to be apart of the body, they must be “born again!” Should the homosexual be allowed to come in our churches and hear the gospel? YES!! Is this a very important issue in the church (homosexuality)? YES!! Hatred is never the way, but standing for the whole truth found in God’s Word can lead to people viewing us in the wrong light. Jesus clearly taught that if you live by my word, “you will be hated by the world.” The reason the church and world is the way it is today is because of issues like this Josh. We must love, but there is also tough love. And for people to think we should unite on error is wrong. Sin is sin, but God in Genesis destoyed a whole people group because of this sin. Paul devoted a major portion of Romans 1 to this issue. We should love the homosexual, but hate the sin. But to say there is a praciting homosexual and they are born-again is wrong! Jesus said, “A good tree will not produce bad fruit, and a bad tree will not produce good fruit.” To practice sin, there is no true repentance. This is like saying abortion is not murder, its choice, so it is alright to do and God does not mind. Will God forgive the abortionist? Absolutely if they repent of their sin and trust in Christ as Lord of their life. He will bring healing and peace to that person’s life. But for the church to sit around and continue to conform to the things of this world, I will not stand with that. We have come to a point were we have allowed the world to influence the church (homosexual movement to be one of the many) and the church not influencing the world anymore. I agree we need the love of Christ in all areas, but also the wisdom to call sin a rattlesnake and not treat it as a cream puff anymore. Paul warned about being carnal minded (worldly minded). It leads to death! Blessings to you brother!
sgabrave said,
July 22, 2009 @ 4:08 am
You have made a few comments that leads me to a few assumptions about your view. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I’ll list the assumptions and follow with my comments.
1. A homosexual cannot be a Christian.
2. Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed on acct. of homosexuality.
3. Once born again, you will not sin. If you do, you didn’t truly repent.
—————————-
1. I definitely disagree with this. I believe that a homosexual is born with a sexual perversion, chemical imbalance if that’s what you want to call it. It’s unnatural, but they are born with it. In the same way that people are born with afflictions or syndromes , so is the homosexual. Sure, some have this condition because circumstances, (child abuse, pedophilia, lack of a father figure, etc), but they still suffer with it. Do you really believe that people choose to be homosexual? Do they choose this very difficult lifestyle? Some may, but I doubt the majority do.
Christ calls all to come to him just as they are. Whether they are prostitutes, homosexuals, murderers, etc. “Christ demonstrated his love for us in that while we were sinners, Christ died for us.”
2. While Gen. 19 implies that homosexual activity was taking place, do you really believe this is why S&G was destroyed? The men of Sodom surrounded the house and wanted to rape the visitors. My belief is that S&G was destroyed because of inhospitality and sexual sin (rape). Lot even offered his daughters in the place of his visitors, showing the importance of being a good host. (even though this act is as bad as rape) Homosexuality isn’t the issue here.
3. I strive everyday to live for Jesus. I love him more and more everyday and try to please him with my life. Unfortunately, I come up short everyday. At times I can be selfish, at times I gossip and say things that I shouldn’t, think thoughts that I shouldn’t think, lust, etc. etc. However, in this 9 year journey that I have been on so far, I’m a lot closer to Christ than I once was. The Christian walk is just that, a walk. A journey. At salvation we aren’t all of the sudden sin free. Why would we need the Holy Spirit if that were the case?
I believe that this is a spiritual formation issue. In the Methodist church we call it sanctifying grace. That tree that you were talking about should bear good fruit, but it must have time to develop and grow first. Even then, it will occasionally produce a bad apple or two.
You say that the church shouldn’t conform to the ways of the world. I agree with you 100%. However, I don’t think that really applies to this issue, at least how I understand it. I think that the church accepting sinners and inviting them to the table is in opposition to the world. Accepting homosexuals is conforming the world? My assumption is that your experience at Worth Co. High School was similar to mine. Do you remember how the world treated the homosexuals? Do you remember the name-calling? Unfortunately, I have heard some of the same things in our churches.
I see Christ defending the homosexual in the same way that he defended the prostitute being stoned. Those judging and casting stones (which was actually an OT law), according to Jesus, were just as guilty. To skip ahead to the “Go and sin no more” part is to miss the point. Jesus stood up for her first. If we want homosexuals (or anyone) to experience the grace, forgiveness, and new life that Christ offers, maybe we should stand up for them first. Jesus had a lot of patience with the outcasts and sinners, but very little with the self-righteous religious folk.
This is Jesus’ prayer for the church “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity…” John 17:22,23
We will have disagreements on issues, but my prayer (and I believe Jesus’ prayer as well) is that we stay united in the process, that we not let this tear up the church. We have way too much at stake. We are humans, so therefore we are going to have disagreements. If it’s not disagreeing about allowing homosexuals into the church then it will be about not allowing divorced people into the church. My hope is that we will stay united so that we can effectively proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ!
Jason Jones said,
July 25, 2009 @ 8:46 pm
“It is better to speak the truth that hurts and then helps than falsehood that comforts and then kills.” Adrian Rogers
1. Any person that still practices sin cannot be a child of God (any sin murder, thief, homosexual, the normal person. A murderer can be saved, but if he continues to murder people and say he is a child of God is absurd. Same way with any sin). If I continued in my sin and live a sin filled life, I have not let the light of Christ change my life. Remember, “old things pass away, He makes ALL things new.” Does this mean change overnight? No. But that person through the help of the Holy Spirit will surrender that sin to God and get out of it. That is why a person that says they are homosexual and is still practicing that sin, or churches blessing unions that do not follow God’s standards, and for churches to bless ordained gay men to preach, is against Gods Word. Paul clearly taught the standards for men to preach the Gospel in 1 Timothy. God created marriage between man and woman, and those who see it in another light do not see the way God does. We do not need to conform to this world.
2. Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed for immorality (which included homosexuality). Paul told us two things in Scripture to flee from, idolatry and immorality. It is time we quit treating sin like a powder puff and start treating it like a rattlesnake. Sin thrills, then steals, then destroys.
3. If you are saved, you are only a sinner saved by grace. You will still sin as a child of God. You will not practice sin. Can one backslide? Yes. God tells us if we confess our sin He will forgive us (1 John 1:9). All people who have been saved have sinned, but they ackowledge that sin and turn from it. The issue with homosexuals being saved and continueing in that sin is absurd. They will turn from that sin if they are saved. Could it take time? Yes. But to say they can conitnue in their sin and continue a sinful lifestyle and be a child of God, I dont see that.
Josh, I look like my dad. You can look at my father and me and tell that I am his son. Why do I look like him? Because I am a part of him and he is my dad. Same way with Jesus. I believe if you are a child of the king, their will be a family resemblance. Do we love the sinner? Yes. Christ loved us inspite of our sin. Does Christ love our sin? No. Our sin put Him on the cross. Christ loves sin and hates the sinner. I was raised in Worth County but I can assure you I never bullied or picked on a homosexual. I have a friend right now that is a practiicing homosexual. Does he know I love him inspite of his chosen lifestyle? Yes. He admits that his lifestlye is not pleasing to God. He is even admitted that God did not create him this way because God does not create sin. He is just not willing to give up his lifestyle. Just like the rich young ruler, he did not want to give up his idol in order to follow Jesus. Salvation is free, but we often forget of the tremendous sacrifice it is to follow Christ. That is why the rich young ruler went away heavy hearted.
Josh, I love you and Jade more than you will ever know. Just be careful what you read and what you are taught. There are men out there like wolves in sheeps clothing, and most dont even realize they are doing harm. Trust God and His perfect Holy Word. Don’t be lead astray by teachings that do not follow the Bible. The Bible is perfect, and will never lead you astray. I went to Brewton Parker College, but I can assure you, Brewton Parker did not go through me. God’s Word is like a lamp unto my feet, a light unto my path.
Always remember the hymn we sang in our churches, “O what a wonderful CHANGE in my life has been wrought since JESUS came into my heart.”
The issue is not homosexual, thief, idolatry, immorality, fornication, swearing, it is CHANGE!! A sinner being chaned into the image of God.
sgabrave said,
July 25, 2009 @ 11:56 pm
Good thoughts Jason.
I absolutely believe that when Christ comes into our lives, he will change us. (I’m actually preaching on that very topic this Sunday.) Why change? Because we (the church) represent God to the world. The world knows Christ through the “strange” acting people in the world known as the church. We are called and chosen to be different. We are to represent Christ. I think we agree on this issue.
What we are really discussing here is Christian ethics. We are trying to answer the question, “When one follows Christ, how is he or she to act?” How do we determine how to act?
Your answer is the bible. My answer is Christian community (the church)
I believe that the bible is the Holy Word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit. I believe that it’s the revelation of Jesus Christ. However, I don’t believe that the bible was written as a how-to manual and a list of do’s and don’ts. I believe the bible is the story of how God interacts with his people.
You say that we get our ethics from the bible, but I’m not so sure. I believe that we get our ethics more so from the christian community in which we live. I would assume that the Southern Baptist church has greatly formed your theological views as has the UMC mine.
Question for you: How many people do your know that came to Christ for salvation through reading the bible? My bet is very few. We come to Christ usually through the influence of our parents or friends or elders. In other words, we come to Christ through our relationship with the body of Christ.
I also believe that this is how we form our ethics (being a part of the church). Do we exclude the bible in this endeavor? Of course not! It’s our main source. However, we form our ethics by interpreting God’s word in community, not in isolation. You know as well as I that when you interpret scripture you have to read it in its context.
So a homosexual will learn about whether his/her lifestyle is right or wrong through the community that he/she joins, not in isolation with a bible. When one chooses to follow Christ, we don’t give them a bible and say “ok, go and read this entire book, come up with your own systematic theology, and get back to us.” No, we embrace the new member as our own and teach them the ways of Jesus.
Grace and peace!
Jason Jones said,
July 26, 2009 @ 2:03 am
The Christian community does influence us. We can agree on that. I have known many people to come to faith through reading the Bible. I will say that christians around us have a great influence on us helping to know Christ, but Romans 10:17 says, “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God.” If the Word of God is not our basis for leading someone to have a relationship with Jesus, what will that basis be? You are right, the Bible is more than do’s and do not’s, but it is absolutely God’s word to us and shows us the way to salvation, the way to be responsible, and the way to be totally surrendered to Him.
And far as a homosexual knowing his lifestlye is right or wrong through the community he/she joins, that could be so if that community is right in their belief system. The liberal churches would not be a great witness for these people. That is why it is important to follow the inspired word of God.
Have a great night bud!!